Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #9d4d2ff8
❤️ 3 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "@@gpt-5 did victoria nuland ever comment on the intercepted ukraine conversation. Did she ever explain the context? Or did any US official explain what that was about?",
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⬇️
Leovia treechat·7mo
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Has the U.S. helped overthrow governments elsewhere?\n- Yes, historically\u2014often covertly: Iran (1953, CIA\u2011backed coup), Guatemala (1954), support for efforts against Chile\u2019s Allende (1970\u201373), encouragement/support around Brazil (1964), complicated roles in Congo (1960\u201361) and later episodes like Honduras (2009) and Venezuela (2002) where U.S. involvement or stance was controversial. Those cases involved overt/covert actions aimed at regime change to varying degrees.\n- Ukraine 2013\u201314 looked different in key respects: widespread, bottom\u2011up mobilization over domestic grievances; an EU\u2011led mediation the U.S. supported that would have kept the incumbent president; and no declassified record of a U.S. plan to remove him.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!

Replies (25)

metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "- Beware common analytic pitfalls\n  - Motive \u2260 evidence of action; funding civil society \u2260 directing an uprising.\n  - Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence\u2014but extraordinary claims require more than circumstantial alignment.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "- Check chronology tests\n  - Did major protest waves precede or follow key foreign moves?\n  - Do documents show outside actors initiating events, or reacting to them?",
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  "author": "14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGK",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "- Look for concrete mechanisms, not just motives\n  - Credible claims of covert regime change usually show: directives, funding/logistics to specific actors, command relationships, coordination with security services, or operational planning. In Ukraine\u2019s 2013\u201314 case, such mechanisms have not surfaced in declassified form or credible leaks.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Practical next steps if you want to probe deeper:\n- Compare grant databases (USAID, NED) with named Ukrainian grantees and their roles during Maidan.\n- Read the Feb 21 agreement and Rada vote tallies from Feb 22\u201323 to test \u201ccoup\u201d vs. crisis\u2011driven constitutional breakdown.\n- Review survey research of Maidan participants for stated motivations.\n- Search FOIA/National Security Archive collections for 2013\u20132014 Ukraine to see what\u2019s actually on paper.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Short answer: No Ukrainian court has ruled that \u201cright\u2011wing Ukrainian snipers\u201d carried out the Maidan shootings of Feb. 20, 2014.",
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  "author": "14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGK",
  "display_name": "metamitya",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "@@gpt-5 was there a Ukrainian court case that found that right wing Ukrainian snipers operated against the protestors which were initially blamed on government forces?",
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  "author": "14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGK",
  "display_name": "metamitya",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "What did happen:\n- A Kyiv court (Sviatoshyn District Court) issued a long-awaited verdict on Oct. 18, 2023 in the case against five ex\u2011Berkut riot police. Several were found guilty and received long sentences over the killing of protesters; others were acquitted on specific counts. Mainstream summaries (Reuters, Kyiv Independent, Hromadske) report convictions of ex\u2011police\u2014none reports a judicial finding that Maidan\u2011side or \u201cright\u2011wing\u201d snipers shot protesters.\n- Some commentators (notably Ivan Katchanovski) argue the massive, million\u2011word verdict text contains passages acknowledging shots from Maidan\u2011controlled locations (e.g., Hotel Ukraina) and unknown shooters, and they present this as confirming a \u201cfalse\u2011flag\u201d scenario. However, no Maidan\u2011side shooters were identified by the court or convicted, and Ukrainian authorities did not announce such a finding.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "**Short answer:** Public evidence is imperfect and U.S. official statements should be treated as one input among many\u2014not the final word. The most reliable approach is to triangulate across independent sources, document types, and incentives. To date, the best\u2011supported view is that the U.S. sought to influence outcomes during a fast\u2011moving, domestically driven crisis in Ukraine, but there is no publicly documented evidence of a U.S.-orchestrated coup. That conclusion remains provisional and could change with future declassifications.How to assess reliability in cases where covert action is possible:",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
{
  "txid": "88956eed58a48d968152ecab5d9999835d4ba180ab09990a4cf53dcec1799df0",
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  "map_content": "- Weight sources by incentives and corroboration\n  - U.S. official statements: useful for stated policy; assume strategic messaging. Seek corroboration outside U.S. government.\n  - Adversary states\u2019 narratives (e.g., Russian government/media): likewise strategic; check against independent facts and documents.\n  - \u201cAdmissions against interest\u201d and internal memos (when available) carry more weight than public talking points.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Bottom line:\n- There is a verdict convicting ex\u2011Berkut officers; there is no court conviction or formal judicial determination that right\u2011wing/Maidan activists acted as snipers against protesters. Claims to that effect reflect interpretations of selected excerpts, not the court\u2019s dispositive finding.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "- Use multiple, independent lines of evidence\n  - Primary documents: leaked/intercepted calls (e.g., Nuland\u2013Pyatt), Rada voting records, the Feb 21 EU\u2011brokered agreement text, budget documents for USAID/NED grants.\n  - Third\u2011party reporting: wire services (AP/Reuters), BBC/FT, Ukrainian outlets with different leanings, and EU/UN statements.\n  - Scholarly work: peer\u2011reviewed studies and survey research on Maidan participants\u2019 motivations and event chronology.\n  - Declassified archives: FOIA releases, National Security Archive collections, inspector\u2011general reports. These are slow but probative when they exist.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "- Consider the declassification horizon\n  - Past U.S. covert operations (e.g., Iran 1953, Chile early 1970s) eventually left a paper trail. Eleven years on from 2014, no comparable documentary record has emerged regarding orchestration of Yanukovych\u2019s removal. This does not prove non\u2011involvement, but it lowers the likelihood of a large, centrally directed covert operation.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
metamityavia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "@@gpt-5 if the US has conducted covert regime change, how reliable is \"publicly available\" evidence, especially from US sources to evaluate the nature of US influence in Ukraine?",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "What the public record shows today:\n- No publicly available evidence that the U.S. directed Maidan\u2011side violence or coordinated any sniper operation.\n- U.S. messaging at the time emphasized non\u2011violence, a negotiated transition, and support for the EU\u2011brokered Feb 21 agreement that would have kept Yanukovych in office pending early elections.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Key timeline:\n- Jan 25: Yanukovych offers Yatsenyuk the PM post and Klitschko a deputy PM role.\n- Jan 26: Opposition publicly rejects the offer.\n- Late January: Nuland\u2013Pyatt call likely recorded (Reuters characterizes it as \"the last days of January\").\n- Feb 5\u20137: Nuland visits Kyiv; meets Yanukovych and opposition; calls for de-escalation and a \"technical\"/transition government.\n- Feb 6\u20137: The Nuland\u2013Pyatt call is leaked and reported (BBC, Reuters).\n- Feb 18\u201320: Deadliest clashes; mass shootings on Feb 20.\n- Feb 21: EU-brokered agreement envisions unity government and early elections with Yanukovych remaining president.\n- Feb 21\u201322: Yanukovych flees Kyiv; Rada acts; Feb 27 Yatsenyuk approved as PM.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "What would not, by itself, amount to implication:\n- General democracy/civil-society assistance (USAID/NED grants to media, NGOs, election monitoring) without ties to the perpetrators or to violence.\n- Diplomatic engagement with opposition figures, public statements, or preference\u2011setting about a transition lineup (as in the Nuland\u2013Pyatt call).\n- Symbolic political support (e.g., visits to the Maidan) absent evidence of directing violent acts.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "@@gpt-5 When did these shootings occur in relation to Nuland payatt calls? Could a timeline establish any link between the two?",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "**Short answer:** The Nuland\u2013Pyatt call was recorded in the last days of January 2014 and leaked Feb 6\u20137. The deadly Maidan shootings peaked on Feb 20 (with major clashes Feb 18\u201320). That puts the shootings roughly 2\u20133 weeks after the call. A simple timeline does not establish a causal link between the call and the shootings; the call\u2019s content is about cabinet lineups and international facilitation, not about violence or security operations.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Bottom line: If\u2014hypothetically\u2014far\u2011right protesters were proven to be the shooters, the U.S. would only be implicated if new, specific evidence showed direction, material support with knowledge, or effective control over those actors. General influence efforts or NGO funding would not meet that bar. If you want, I can help outline what concrete documents or datasets would be probative and where to look for them.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "If the shootings did turn out to be perpetrated by the far right protesters, could that implicate the US in any way?",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "@@gpt-5 If the shootings did turn out to be perpetrated by the far right protesters, could that implicate the US in any way?",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Could a timeline establish a link? Not on its own. The call precedes the shootings by weeks and addresses political sequencing and international support (UN/IMF/EU), not tactics of street violence. No publicly available evidence ties the call to the Feb 18\u201320 killings.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Legal/analytical yardsticks:\n- International responsibility typically requires \u201ceffective control\u201d over non\u2011state actors\u2019 specific operations (ICJ standard). Mere ideological sympathy or broad funding isn\u2019t enough.\n- Aiding/abetting requires concrete assistance linked to the crime with knowledge of its use\u2014again, not satisfied by generic democracy assistance.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Sources you can check:\n- BBC transcript of the call: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957\n- Reuters on timing (\u201clast days of January\u201d): https://www.reuters.com/article/world/leaked-audio-reveals-embarrassing-us-exchange-on-ukraine-eu-idUSBREA1601K/\n- Overviews of the Feb 18\u201320 events: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/20/maidan-kyiv-protests-10-years-ukraine",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!
Leovia treechat·7mo
Replying to #882eba87
❤️ 0 Likes · ⚡ 0 Tips
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  "map_content": "Short answer: Only if there were credible evidence that U.S. officials or programs directed, funded, armed, trained, or exercised operational control over those specific shooters\u2014or knowingly facilitated the operation. Absent that, it would be a political accusation, not a substantiated implication.",
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Signed by14aqJ2hMtENYJVCJaekcrqi12fiZJzoWGKAIP!